CAMRA cancels BrewDog's GBBF Bar.
19.07.2011
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Back in May, we announced that we would be attending the GBBF in August. We had came to an agreement with CAMRA to have a bar serving kegged our beers at the festival. We signed the contract and paid the deposit. We agreed to work together with CAMRA, put past differences behind us, and try and introduce something new and exciting to the Great British Beer Festival. We feel the festival lacks the stylistic diversity amongst domestic brewers that makes craft beer great. It is easy to get lost in a sea of boring, lightly hopped bland cask ales at the festival and we were determined to change that.
Foreign keg beers have always been present at the GBBF so it seems strange that CAMRA, in their infinite wisdom, would apply different rules to domestic, rather than overseas participants. We are sure this violates EU law as well as being deeply flawed. It was not easy initially, getting them to allow us to attend with keg rather than cask beer. Ironic that if Scotland was independent, we would qualify as foreign and could serve anything we wanted there.
During the course of the discussion we were able to satisfy CAMRA and Ralph Warrington, Chair of the wonderfully named ‘Technical Advisory Group’ that our draft beer does indeed contain 0.1 million living yeast cells per ml. Our kegged and bottled beers are only lightly filtered (around 5-7 micron), unpasteurized and the bulk of the carbonationisation comes from CO2 created during the initial fermentation which occurs under pressure. Despite this, a subject of our attendance was that our beers were going to be tested by an onsite laboratory (I did not know they had one!) and if they did not meet the CAMRA definition of ale, they ‘would not be sold, then returned as ullage, not paid for and our bar cancelled’.
This begs the killer question; who actually cares is a beer contains at least 0.1 million living yeast cells per millilitres? Surely this is not the definition of good beer. For us great beer is great beer regardless of if it is bottle, cask, can, keg. Regardless of if it is bottle conditioned, carbonated during the initial fermentation or carbonated prior to packaging. Give me a Stone IPA (which is carbonated) any day over a fundamentally pedestrian cask bitter.
Rushden Historical transport society social club is awarded the C.A.M.R.A. Regional Pub of the year 2009. Presenting the award on behalf of C.A.M.R.A. is Mr Julian Tubbs -Regional Director
If we look at what is happening with craft beer globally it is all about a wide spectrum of beer styles with amazing flavour, diversity and craftsmanship rather than CAMRA who are rapidly losing relevance hiding behind arbitrary distinctions which no longer apply. Production and dispense techniques for craft beer have changed since the 1970s, CAMRA need to accept this and change too. Why apply one rule to foreign brewers and another one to domestic ones?
Is our beer real ale? Are other progressive UK craft brewer's keg and bottled beers real ale? Firstly, I don’t think we should really care. However is CAMRA insist on imposing draconian rules they need to know what they stand for and where to draw the line. The problem is, they themselves don’t know.
We really don't care what vessel beer is transported or stored in as long as it adds to the brew in a positive way. While we're firm believers in the carbonation in beer – however taking a puritanical stance that rejects a beer on the basis of carbonation or keg alone only serves to push the industry backwards rather than forwards. Different beers suit different types of dispense. Beers such as milds and bitters are best showcased in cask whereas we feel hoppy, American style craft ales suit the draft dispense far better than the hand-pump. We also think some of our beers, such as Trashy Blonde suit cask better than keg. However, for us big dry-hopped beers need the carbonation to stop them from becoming sticky or cloying on the pallet and help deliver the flavour to your taste-buds in the most satisfying and encapsulating way.
Anyway, after we reached the agreement, paid the deposit and signed the contract, things started to get difficult. We had our order confirmed and thought we were all ready to rock. However, the first issue they threw back at us was with the fact our kegs were going to be 30L. CAMRA started insisting 30L was too small and we should take 18 gallon casks (after we initially agreed a keg order). 18 gallon casks are however massively different from 30L kegs, not just in size but in dispense style. They said 30L was too small, despite the fact brewers attended with 9 gallon casks (a comparable size to 30L kegs) the previous year. They also argued 30L kegs would be too much of a challenge logistically: This is despite the fact they are much lighter than an 18 gallon cask and also require zero racking or venting required thus saving loads of time and space and making them much easier to handle.
During the ensuing debate, it was patently obvious they regretted signing the contract with us and were desperate to find a way of cancelling it. They then reneged from our original agreement and insisted we take cask beer. Because of this discussion we told them we would withhold the balance of the £5,500 payment until we agreed or reverted to the original contract.
They then sent us an ultimatum saying we had to accept their order (including cask beers) by 12 noon on Friday 15th July and transfer the deposit or they would be cancelling our attendance. Feeling totally frustrated but still very keen to attend the festival we reluctantly accepted this at 11am last Friday and transferred the balance, only to be told they had already cancelled our attendance and there was to be no further discussion on this. They had done this on Thursday 14th.
We are pretty shocked CAMRA unceremoniously cancelled our attendance at the festival and also by the manner in which they acted. We intended to take some amazing beers and do some very exciting new beer launches. We wanted to work with CAMRA after our past difficulties and try and breathe some new life into the GBBF and get more young people excited about great craft beer.
Maybe we should also start a campaign to get BrewDog at the GBBF?
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I believe everyone has had a fair chance to voice their view below :)
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
I for one believe James rather than CAMRA.
P.s have you had the range of Brew Dog beers? they are outstanding in taste and quality
persicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Graham 19.07.2011
Grrr... 19.07.2011
Ewan 19.07.2011
this is not true either, one of their orders was for 30L keykegs.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
chris@thelambpub.net 19.07.2011
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, who exactly did you e-mail? Did their responses contain all those typos are are those your own? why didn't you just copy-paste the e-mails?
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Surely this is the best solution for everyone.
Teddy, Lonodn 19.07.2011
they are sending a lot of wrong information to you.
1) Even by Marc's account below, we were less than 1 day late with payment
2) They did change the original arrangement and would not revert to this.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
------
Hi All
I was just wondering why you have taken Brew Dog off your festival please? This is very sad, I was looking forward to this.
Obviously there is a lot of hearsay flying about the internet (their blog site, twitter and facebook) but I can’t seem to see the truth of the matter.
Thank you in advance for your reply, this is greatly appreciated.
---------
In short they didn’t pay their bill.
We would have liked there also and are disappointed that they w3ill not be there.
-----
Many thanks for your very quick reply, I wasn’t expecting one so soon.
Yes but I have read this online, and am a little disappointed to say the least. Surely some dispensation could be made here and allow Brew Dog to appear, it really is very nice beer indeed (okay some isn’t great granted) and the public will be missing out on a great brewer, couldn’t an organisation as fantastic and large as CAMRA are make allowances?
-------
We did make allowances
Seven weeks worth of allowance after the deadline for payment
------------
Again thank you for your reply.
I’ve heard that the seven weeks was an extension due to contractual changes imposed by CAMRA, is this true?
-----
No that is not true there was no attempt by CAMRA to change the contract signed by Brewdog
------
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Official huh? Be on their website then I guess...?
Grrr... 19.07.2011
the response is still there below as posted by Marc for everyone to read.
Only repetitions are deleted.
Admin 19.07.2011
SashDog 19.07.2011
I haven't chosen to believe one side over the other.
However, as I just posted the official CAMRA response and BrewDog administrators have deleted it, you can draw your own conclusions.
Bored of you all 19.07.2011
They extended the payment date, presumably to work out the change to the order, no agreement was reached by that point so it all got cancelled. If brewdog were pissing about at the first non-extended date surely they would have cancelled then? No?
If the CAMRA changed the order then Brewdog have every right to be pissed about this, if Brewdog simply decided they weren't going to supply what was agreed, or simply weren't going to pay for the bar as was agreed (with no changes as alledged) the CAMRA would have every right to cancel and be pissed about it.
Campaign? Bollocks! If shennanigans have been going on then better off out of it I say.
I do, however, like the idea of an organisation which will support and promote great beer however it is delivered - and yes, even to the exclusion of some mass market beers that CAMRA would consider "real".
Grrr... 19.07.2011
@Brew-dude 19.07.2011
All orginal posts still below.
Administrator 19.07.2011
I can sense your hatred, yes yes turn to the dark side yes.
*p.s it's a pinch of salt/humour attempt....I'll get my cloak.
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
jk 19.07.2011
Why are you Brits allowing a bunch of dowdy old farts to stand in your way?
TimBeer 19.07.2011
I'm not an advocate for CAMRA in anyway, nor am I against BrewDog. It's you lot I can't stand.
All this fan boy whining, when if you read the comments from the GBBF organiser, BrewDog were 7 weeks late with payment and failed to adhere to the terms and conditions of the contract.
So what really happened? I fear it is not I who is delusional, certainly not when I read all the brainwashed comments from you set of fanboy of puppy lovers.
Bored of you all 19.07.2011
any replies?
peace
PC
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
PCP 19.07.2011
Richard E Allele 19.07.2011
James(not brew dog) 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Danny 19.07.2011
Ian 19.07.2011
Ben SW 19.07.2011
If you want great beer stay away from Brewdog.
jk 19.07.2011
that is not what really happened. If you want to be delusional as well as throw insults and be ignorant that is cool.
And having the courage to do all that and not even post your name. What a hero for CAMRA!
Billy 19.07.2011
Do I think that sending a few e-mails will make a difference due to ''massive logistical and programme-production issues that prevent Brewdog attending'' ? Maybe not, but I know that sitting on my arse and doing nothing but fume in anger at this backwards decision by this most narrowminded of organisations won't achieve anything either.
So send your protest e-mails here people;
gbbf@camra.org.uk
camra@camra.org.uk
Fuck CAMRA and have a nice day :)
Fraser 19.07.2011
brew-dude 19.07.2011
*delete as appropriate.
be nice now or you won't get your tea
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Mike 19.07.2011
There are rules and everyone else sticks to them, like paying on time for example, so why should BrewDog get special treatment?
Now you want a petition to get BrewDog in to the GBBF? How old are you people? It's like listening to a thousand tantrums from pathetic children.
BrewDog haven't been banned, they failed to pay on time or comply with the conditions to attend. Would you start shouting at an airline if you rocked up to the terminal having not paid for a flight and without a passport? No.
Now shut the fuck up you whiney little bitches
Bored of you all 19.07.2011
CAMRA have failed.
brew-dude 19.07.2011
I see you are a gent that is simply either very stubbourn or very intelligent, and I will now retire from this discourse and buy a bewDog.
toodle pip old bean
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
AJ 19.07.2011
Grrr... 19.07.2011
jk 19.07.2011
There was a waiting list of other brewers ready to supply at short notice. Two weeks IS short notice.
You're criticising him for doing exactly what you say you'd have done in his place.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
1) if the deadline (for what ever reason) was extended then ask who would like to be a stand in at short notice. Given CAMRA are a large organisation with substantial clout this shouldn't be a problem.
2) Have mock ups done with each agreed standins name on the material that would be sent to the printer.
Seems very very logical to have suitable contingency in the event of a cancellation, albeit by CAMRA and not BrewDog, and if indeed this was 7 weeks is the true timescale, what contingency was made within 7 weeks.
It's all excuses isn't Graeme, sorry to hear this I really am.
It's people who are missing out, remember that.
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Mike 19.07.2011
I CAN handle the truth Mr Nicholson ;)
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
What would you have had as a plan B? 7 weeks after the deadline everyone else adhered to, Marc needed to have a confirmed brewery for the bar. If there was no sign Brewdog were willing to supply on terms practical for the festival, then what should he have done, simply had an empty space?
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Adam 19.07.2011
Some of Brewdog's [excellent] products are "real" by the CAMRA definition. This doesn't appear to be the root of the dispute.
@Fraser - the festival starts in 2 weeks. A petition is unlikely to make any difference to the massive logistical and programme-production issues that prevent Brewdog attending, and a petition for them to attend in 2012 is pushing at an open door as Marc has already said they're welcome to negotiate for 2012.
Let's not forget that Brewdog pulled out of the Scottish Real Ale Festival about 2 weeks before that event.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
I just sent them an email!
The only way for CAMRA to save face and remain relevant is to invite BrewDog back.
It would be a brave call sure, but would ensure BrewDog feel indebted to them ensure to ensure they are happy to be at the GBBF rather than use it as a stunt.
I still think CAMRA are far too petty and pedantic to invite them back though.
Matt 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
gbbf@camra.org.uk
camra@camra.org.uk
Fraser 19.07.2011
Looking from the other side, CAMRA is a private club, it's their party, they can have who they want at it. More fool them for not inviting (or taking back the invite) probably the best beer brewer in the country. BrewDog does not need to compromise to be successful.
Charlie 19.07.2011
Please publish your address details so I can forward you a large fish.
Instructions upon delivery:
1. Sign for the parcel
2. Open parcel carefully
3. Take out the large fish
4. Run the fish under cold water for 30 seconds to produce the wet fish
5. Hold the big wet fish by the tail
6. Stand in front of a mirror
7. Proceed to slap your self across the face with the wet fish
8. Repost on this blog so we can evaluate if the above process knocked some sense into you
9.For added effect I recommend shaving off your beard and removing your glasses. White socks and sandals are optional
10. If the above fails please repeat several times until desired results are achieved
Enjoy,
I had to repost this as it is genius 19.07.2011
Marc did have a plan B. It was to drop Brewdog when they failed to pay and get a replacement brewer in good time to get the programmes printed.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Give your chum Marc a buzz and ask him if he wouldn't mind popping back on to explain what the ordering issue was.
He seems like he isn't too scared to tell the truth so how about it? We're all pretty clear that Brewdog were happy to supply beer with the requisite amount of live yeast present so the product wasn't in question at the point of contract. So it must be down to the vessels - did CAMRA specify a certain style and size of keg on the contract? If not they're running out of legs to stand on PDQ'ly. If they did - then I'm afraid it would be @James who would be on the sticky wicket.
So come on boys - anyone care to offer up the order for which the contracts were signed?
Grrr.... 19.07.2011
peace
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
CAMRA have lost it. Oh and John, Manchester - maybe the best blog comment ever posted.
Let's all just have a beer. Preferably a Punk IPA at the GBBF, I can dream....
Max 19.07.2011
James said the letter showed that they had cancelled before the deadline. The letter didn't show that at all, it only showed that Brewdog hadn't paid by the date specified in the contract, which is irrelevant given the extension.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
CAMRA should let BrewDog go.
Wish I knew what they were planning on launching there. Knowing BrewDog, it would be epic!
Tom 19.07.2011
Please publish your address details so I can forward you a large fish.
Instructions upon delivery:
1. Sign for the parcel
2. Open parcel carefully
3. Take out the large fish
4. Run the fish under cold water for 30 seconds to produce the wet fish
5. Hold the big wet fish by the tail
6. Stand in front of a mirror
7. Proceed to slap your self across the face with the wet fish
8. Repost on this blog so we can evaluate if the above process knocked some sense into you
9.For added effect I recommend shaving off your beard and removing your glasses. White socks and sandals are optional
10. If the above fails please repeat several times until desired results are achieved
Enjoy,
John, Manchester 19.07.2011
Anon 19.07.2011
That was the only reason I was going and I have now booked my trip.
Mark 19.07.2011
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
John F. Kennedy
Come on dude, your better than CAMRA! Join the revolution! Vive le Brewdog
brew-dude 19.07.2011
If this is as simple as a screwed up order to start with, then CAMRA should be big enough to stand up and say "we ordered the wrong stuff and couldn't get it sorted with Brewdog in time to fit the logistics, sorry". Marc nearly got there...
So come on CAMRA - what happened? Didn't realise what you ordered? Made an arse of trying to get other stuff that fitted with the logistics?
Go on, be brave... let it all out... you'll feel better for it...
Grrr.... 19.07.2011
Find a venue on the Saturday, put on a shit load of your beers an i'll ditch my ticket for sure!
If you build it....they will come!
Hand Shandy 19.07.2011
@Perspicacity -- I don't know, but no-one outside of the Brewdog/GBBF folk involved do. There's no evidence anywhere that the extension was to the 14th or 15th of July. Until we know which it was, then there's no point crying into our pints.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
They are and have long been now an obsolete joke. May their joke of an organisation die a painful death.
Fraser 19.07.2011
I am sorry that a fantastic outlet as BrewDog are unable to push their craft ales at the festival. I think it is a good idea to delay the Camden opening time. There is a lot on beer wise at the moment. November is very free in my diary. That would be good.
I sincerely hope Brewdog's business is not disrupted by this event.
Thomas 19.07.2011
CAMRA ....... Cunts . Against . Modernistic . REAL . Ale
TO BE HONEST I THINK THEY ARE SCARED
They obviously needed some elaborate excuse as to not include brewdog beer into the GBBF ... i'm disgusted and more than appauled to see such a brilliant, natural and thoughtful independent brewer like brewdog to be secluded from an event of which is organised to celebrate real brittish beer !!!!!!
i will be attending the GBBF ... PUNK Ipa t-shirt on back and my brewdog tin sign up high .... down with CAMRA .... UP WITH THE CRAFT BEER REVOLUTION !!!!!!!!!!!
chris thompson 19.07.2011
@ Graeme
you keep bleeting on about evidence like a whiny little girl.
James posted the cancellation letter. BrewDog's payment was either an hour early, or 23 hours late depending on which version of events you buy.
The delay is caused by CAMRA changing the order and breaking the initial agreement.
All this is superfluous really. You are missing the whole point by labouring this. You are not seeing the whole picture here dude. The main point is just how out of touch CAMRA are and the fact they can't even get their head around a keykeg.
Matt 19.07.2011
My message to CAMRA is to take the bee out of your bonnet, stop with the fuddy-duddy stereotype and let the BrewDogs out. It won’t just be one brewery you are alienating, it will be a whole new generation of beer drinkers. You don’t all have to be friends, you just need to understand that sometimes in life you have to learn to be tolerant and it is the public that are missing out until you can learn to get along.
After all, it is the Great British Beer Festival and the BrewDogs are Great British Beers.
Matthew 19.07.2011
How do you know the order was changed? Because James claims it was?
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Please, drop the childish rhetoric.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Not really when the contract/order was agreed on specific beers and specific vessels. IMO @James should have terminated as soon as CAMRA imposed changes to the original contract/order. If CAMRA change it they should be prepared to accept that it may not be acceptable to the brewer. The extension to the deadline wasn't "generous" - more a common courtesy if that!
Never mind the debate about what beers fall under CAMRAs umbrella, the point here is that someone at CAMRA has placed an order with Brewdog that they didn't actually want (and again, whether that was just a simple ordering mistake or something more systemic is irrelevant) - CAMRA placed the order which was agreed by Brewdog thereby entering into a contract. CAMRA then changed it.
Or did they not?
Grrr... 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
brew-dude 19.07.2011
Of course, we could all just sling insults all day, but I'd much rather see the truth of the matter.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
CAMRA would look decent and beer drinkers would benefit? Everyone would be a winner.
Here is betting they are far too petty and stuborn to do this.
Adrian 19.07.2011
And the delay was due to the fact CAMRA changed the order.
Chris T 19.07.2011
Brewdog festival would be amazing. CAMRA are fearing the revolution...
brew-dude 19.07.2011
Rolf 19.07.2011
(and as a foreigner I can also wonder if it's a great festival for british beers, festival for great beers from britain, festival for beers from great britain, a british festival for great beers etc etc, hehe)
Kolbjorn 19.07.2011
The previous blog on this subject carries an undisputed comment from Marc that they would need 50l containers. James is claiming they weren't allowed to supply in 30l containers. That shouldn't be a surprise.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Stephanos 19.07.2011
And petty to boot.
Adrian 19.07.2011
Simply not true -- even an independent Scotland would have to adhere to the CAMRA definition of real ale, as it is a country with a tradition of cask conditioned beer.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
It's rather strange that in many organisations it's the use of power that is their downfall.
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Prick!
Mr T 19.07.2011
This is the only way for CAMRA to emerge with any scrap of dignity here.
Ian 19.07.2011
Should Marc have extended the deadline again? THAT'S NOT A DEADLINE.
Doing so would jeopardise his ability to get a replacement brewer for the space in good time in the event that the balance had not been paid.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Rep
Becca 19.07.2011
He's like a broken record.
Stone the crows.
Johnny 19.07.2011
I don't want to let this develop into a spat, but to say I was "under a huge amount of internal pressure to try and cancel it" is just not true. I'm in charge of GBBF and everybody knows not to try and interfere with the way I run the festival.
As I said previously, come on down this year, have a look, I'll even give you a personal guided tour. And we'll work on getting it right for 2012.
Cheers,
Marc.
marc_holmes 19.07.2011
True Scot! 19.07.2011
Petty beyond belief.
And a huge loss to the GBBF.
John 19.07.2011
These festival is called the great British beer festival, not the great British cask ale festival. Maybe we just need a new Festival.
So when's the Brewdog Great Beer Fest going to kick off??!
string 19.07.2011
Mark 19.07.2011
I also personally have doubts as to the keykeg's ability to serve properly vessel-conditioned beer, but that doesn't appear to be a point of dispute.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Rob 19.07.2011
1) The deposit was paid in time
2) the balance was with-held as CAMRA changed the original order and refused to discuss this.
3) The CAMRA imposed deadline for the transfer balance was met.
Ever since we signed the contract I think Marc, who I liked dealing with, came under a huge amount of internal pressure to try and cancel it. This would explain the change in order, the unwillingness to revert to the original agreement and changing the goalposts on the deposit.
We liked dealing with Marc and felt we were on the same page and could achieve something. I think the forces inside CAMRA are too blame here.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Watch out for the vigilante Seagulls, or foxes. We like vigilante foxes. Like the Disney Robin Hood.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
A deadline may well be a deadline.
Where on that scale of definitives would you put a contract or an order? higher? lower?
@James - Just keep making brilliant beer with one change - get more of it down south please!!!
Grrrr... 19.07.2011
peace
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
Tom 19.07.2011
Here's a thought, surely the people who have bought tickets on the strength that Brew Dog were going to be there would have every right to write and demand their money back?
Gary 19.07.2011
Kolborn 19.07.2011
Claims of fraud are also a pretty serious matter.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Kris 19.07.2011
Matt 19.07.2011
even on your notes below (which are false and possibly fraudulent) we missed a deadline by less than a day.
A deadline that you imposed because we disputed the fact you changed the original order after we had paid the deposit and signed a contract.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
They also weren't 23 hours late. They were 7 WEEKS late.
As someone who has been involved in running events in the past, a sponsor or supplier being even a few days late with payment can be devastating for an event. 7 weeks is a LONG time.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Only one winner here.
Go BrewDog!
Chris T 19.07.2011
Sim 19.07.2011
Nevertheless if I had to choose only one beer to drink from now to the end of time I would choose a lightly hopped bland cask ale. The way you can find in England. The way CAMRA has helped save and preserve.
Please don't insult what you obviously don't understand.
Make your beers and respect the work of others.
Cheers,
Franco.
Livingstone 19.07.2011
even by your account of it, you cancelled their attendance for being 23 hours late on a deadline.
ha, almost too petty to be true. Especially as they had agreed to your revised order.
Marc is Satan! 19.07.2011
political scene.
Biggles 19.07.2011
Ironic that such pedantic pettiness should blow this chance for them and the olive branch offered by BrewDog.
Bex 19.07.2011
Amazed to hear such drivel from a grown man.
Marc - you should email James, apologise and invite them to attend this year.
Adrian 19.07.2011
1. I understand that Camra's TAG are trialling key kegs on the Volunteer Arms staff bar, away from the main event. 2. I understand that some of the Czech draught beers are to be supplied in the same manner.
You'd need to hear clarification from Camra on this, seems to me.
Sid Boggle 19.07.2011
The previous blog on this subject talks about 50l containers, while now you're talking about 30l containers, which appears to be central to the dispute.
You're also still making unsubstantiated claims.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Seriously?
And the delay was only caused becauase CAMRA changed the original order and can't even understand what a keykeg is.
Anally retentive CAMRA at their worst.
go BrewDog!
Stacey 19.07.2011
Tony 19.07.2011
even if your version of events is right, which I really doubt, you cancelled their attendance for being 23 hours late on a deadline impossed during the EFP launch when the BrewDog team were travelling and very tied up.
You fucking tosser.
Matt. 19.07.2011
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
BrewDog have extended the olive branch here and CAMRA have slapped them in the face with it.
CasLad 19.07.2011
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
“Please agree to the terms of the email sent yesterday and have the funds deposited by 12pm Friday”. (the 15th).
@ Graeme 19.07.2011
that letter says that you didn't pay by the 27th May. Where's the evidence you were granted extension to 15th July?
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
The reason Brewdog are not coming is that you didn’t pay the outstanding balance, as per the terms of the contract.
- The contract stated payment for the bar was due by May 27th. Giving you until July was very generous, nearly 7 weeks.
- The ultimatum was Thursday 12pm, you kept arguing and didn't agree until Friday 11am. Too late, we had programme deadlines to meet.
But to answer some of your other points:
- Right from the very start we said your beer must be supplied in large containers. We were happy with 50L kegs (as long as the beer contained live yeast) but you persisted in wanting to use 30L keykegs. Thornbridge did use 9G casks last year but it didn't work - they will be using 18G casks this year. We were looking at ordering in excess of 60 kils (equivalent) of beer, which is just not practical in 30L keykegs.
- You were the one that offered to supply cask beer in 18G casks.
Happy to start talking about GBBF 2012, and feel free to pop in this year to see how it works. I’ll even send you some tickets.
Cheers,
Marc Holmes
GBBF Organiser.
marc_holmes 19.07.2011
The beer is identical (same recipe, same abv etc.) but because CAMRA won't budge one bit on delivery systems I have no choice but to conform. I'm not big enough to shoot myself in the foot by ignoring CAMRA (although I'd love to) so whilst I build up the business I guess keeping CAMRA sweet is what I'll have to do.
I love what Brewdog do and the beers are excellent (wish I could create a few similar!)
BlueBuzzard Ales 19.07.2011
Eddie Miles 19.07.2011
I am a CAMRA member but have nothing to do with GBBF except as a volunteer, one who was looking forward to having all of Brewdog's beers available in one place.
I'm just sceptical of any claims of unfairness presented with no evidence -- if the evidence exists and is as damning as claimed, there can be no reason to withhold it.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
We with-held the balance payment pending agreement on what beer we were taking. The deposit was paid on time when the original order was confirmed, as soon as this happened they went back on our original agreement as to what we could serve at the bar. They were also completely unwilling to engage and discuss this with us despite numerous requests. We eventually a But WE did transfer the balance in accordance with the deadline they set us as an ultimatum.
James, Brewdog 19.07.2011
John Medd 19.07.2011
He wrote: ‘It's also interesting that you've chosen to show the letterhead (supposedly as proof of the date) while not showing the content of the letter. Given the recent accusations of "clever" manipulation of images it's another poor decision.’
I presume Graeme Gander is from CAMRA and he sounds as though he was involved in the decision to cancel and he may even have written the letter. But in the interests of openness and transparency, please show the full text of the letter.
I am a CAMRA member and I’ve only ever had BrewDog from the cask. I love Punk IPA, The Physics and Paradox from the cask, but I’m afraid I’ve always found Trashy Blonde a disappointing beer.
I’ve never had BrewDog from the keg so I can’t judge. I did have a pint of kegged Blue Moon at The Turf Tavern in Oxford and it tasted okay, but it was a hot day and a very expensive distress purchase because of the dismal ales on offer—mostly from White Horse.
I have had cask Stone California Double IPA (7%) which was brewed by Stone brewers at Shepherd Neame for Wetherspoon’s spring beer festival in 2008. That was one of the best beers I've ever had, with an incredibly lavish use of spicy aromatic American hops. As an attempt to recreate a traditional India Pale Ale it beat my previous all-time fave, Thornbridge Jaipur IPA, but I think cask Arbor Yakima Valley gives it a run for its money.
Tim Mars 19.07.2011
All i will say is that the real CAMRA "cliche" i sthat there is still a cliche. Most peopel hearing of CAMRA now don't immediately think socks and sandals, only those who already know who CAMRA are and have an axe to grind.
Of course there are still "socks and sandals" members but they are a small minority. The majority of CAMRA members are everyday people like everyone posting here.
Stephanos 19.07.2011
Brewdog have opened up the world of craft beer to younger drinkers, and camra have now nailed their colours to the mast and said young drinkers are not welcome here.
I would support a brewdog festival. This is what the beer drinkers need, not a beer festival full of crumbling, festering old grumpy fu*ks
Glasgow_guy 19.07.2011
I never before saw CAMRA as being, well, quite so snobby about UK beers but this has opened my eyes!
Gary 19.07.2011
Gareth 19.07.2011
The nature of the breakdown is all that's in question.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Walter 19.07.2011
Leo 19.07.2011
Leo 19.07.2011
Then why not provide them rather than tiny shots of the letterhead?
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
An army of penguins? A gaggle of CAMRA fighting vigilante seagulls? A BrewDog bar outside the event?
Anti CAMRA 19.07.2011
Cam 19.07.2011
the version is accurate and pretty straightforward. We have documents to back it all up too.
James, Brewdog 19.07.2011
If it isn't about believing everything James says, then where's the evidence?
Saying it isn't about swallowing James' version when all you have to go on is James' version is a little hard to buy.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
This decision will hurt CAMRA much more than it will hurt BrewDog.
Mr T 19.07.2011
BlackBar 19.07.2011
My CAMRA DD is about to renew, and this gives me real pause for thought as to whether to retain it or not. British beermaking will move on without them - I would much rather drink a BrewDog or Meantime keg than, say, a Shepherd Neame.
Chrissington 19.07.2011
Pat 19.07.2011
This isn't about believeing everything James says. Sounds awful but this reminds me of a women having to submit to virginity checks by a priest before she gets married (only women from outside the village mind).
More importantly I'm "guessing" the majority of CAMRA members don't agree with the attitude the leadership (or a few members) have taken, in the same way the majority of Labour party members did not agree with the Iraq war. The difference is I think this will galvanise members to change CAMRA, to promote choice, micobrewing, localism and diversity (all of which it claims to do).
Most importantly if Brewdog is making "foreign" style ale, what's wrong with this? Many foreign brewers happily wear their british influences on their sleeve.
The real danger to real ale was never the influence of non-native styles, cross cultural fetilisation, but the homogenous mush caused by mass industrialisation and unfettered capitalism.
Arec 19.07.2011
Recently CAMRA seem to be becoming more and more the threatened dinosaur, and I hope that someone can pick up the baton and really take British brewing forward without disappearing up their own petty guidelines.
gareths121 19.07.2011
1. Everyone should write to CAMRA to voice their opinions directly rather than quietly complaining here.
2. Perhaps it is time for a new, younger organization focused at the promotion of craft beers - ie small brewers and micro breweries from around the world that do not also own and control the majority of the bars and pubs.
3. BrewDog should turn this to their advantage and arrange a country wide alternative to GBBF - get as many pubs/bars to stock a wide and exciting selection of BrewDog beers during GBBF week - it's a good way to attract drinkers during GBBF, especially around London.
MrBov 19.07.2011
Joe 19.07.2011
What exactly is the merit of keg over cask other than it allows unpopular beers to be sold more slowly without going off?
Most of your production is either going abroad or to Tesco etc. where punters can buy it cheaper than wholesalers and pubs can. As such the promotion of your brand is so much of another nail in the coffin of the UK pub industry and CAMRA shouldn't be doing it.
If CAMRA buy keg beer off you why not buy keg beer off other UK volume brewers?
I think CAMRA were foolish to do anything other than order cask beer off you in the first place. Your cask beer is good. I can't give your keg beer away.
The world doesn't revolve around your business plan/ exit strategy. When AB/Inbev or whoever buy you out how much will the Equity for Punks subscribers get?
Denzil 19.07.2011
anon 19.07.2011
you dont sound bitter to me. however, camra sound more confused than scooby doo.
I dont hink you should start a campaign to get ur beers in the festival.
Instead its time you launched your own festival. a real one, not like the ones in the bars that was basicly just your own beers. but hold an event where u bring together the best and most progressive brittish brewers. take the chance to really educate the market , particulay here in scotland and showcase your own beers and the other great breweries who are following your lead and pushing the beer market in the UK forward.
your doing a good job but more education to a wider market will help brewdogs sales go through the roof!
Chris 19.07.2011
calumrobertson 19.07.2011
Rival the festival. Takeover a pub around the corner and hold smart parties, food events, loads of amazing stuff to pull the crowd round your way. Subvert!
simon wilden 19.07.2011
Steve 19.07.2011
John 19.07.2011
George 19.07.2011
The naive invocation of European law is a red herring, as those laws protect sale, and do not force purchase.
It's amazing how many people are swallowing James' side of the story hook,line, and sinker, with absolutely no evidence other than his word for the events.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Are there any decent beer clubs I can join? Or even set up?
Francis Gilbert 19.07.2011
Mikkeller 19.07.2011
John 19.07.2011
Victoria 19.07.2011
BrewDog is pretty much my favourite brewery. Your beer is stunning, and the fact I can buy it in cans from Sainsbury's is just amazing.
Keep up the good work. Fuck CAMRA
John B 19.07.2011
I think there is a danger though that you'll end up tying CAMRA members (of which I am) to the leadership. It's a pretty large consumer organisation, where most of the younger members do not take an active part. I volunteer at one beer festival every year, in Wakefield (I'm a Londoner... long story), but even in my mid-thirties I am probably the youngest person to do so. I have never taken part in my local CAMRA group, although posts like this make me really want to get involved (to put an end to this nonsence).
Arec 19.07.2011
Nikolai 19.07.2011
Martin 19.07.2011
dan 19.07.2011
Ben K 19.07.2011
It's these petty CAMRA decisions that really annoy me. I don't care whether beer is cask or keg or bottle, as long as it's good beer. I was at a CAMRA beer festival last week and drunk lots of different Real Ales, very few of them I would describe as good though.
CAMRA need to look at what they are doing as they are alienating a lot of great new UK breweries who are using keg more and more and filling them with amazing beer.
GrowlingDogBeer 19.07.2011
I do think the argument that CAMRA should change its policies and be more inclusive of British breweries that dont do things in the traditional manner and dispense their beers from cask is never going to change things. Fundamentally, rightly or wrongly, CAMRA's main purpose is about supporting traditional British ale (the clue's in the name) and i'd argument they cant change and it will need a new organisation to be started to support an all encompassing mission to promote 'great beer' however it's served...i dont believe CAMRA will / can do this. Just like if you had an organisation called the Campaign for kegged beers im sure they wouldnt allow casked beers to be served.
If, like me, the CAMRA ethos isnt for you dont join it. I will go to a CAMRA beer festival to support breweries that make great beer for cask that is being served at it but would the organisation or promote it.
calumrobertson 19.07.2011
Ian 19.07.2011
bob 19.07.2011
Gareth 19.07.2011
I would suggest that when the agreement was made the limitations of keykeg for serving vessel-conditioned beer were not fully understood by both parties.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
Glenn 19.07.2011
Bex 19.07.2011
Ian 19.07.2011
John 19.07.2011
Dave 19.07.2011
We had satisfied CAMRA that what we were going to serve conformed to their arbitrary definition of real ale. This was also going to be tested by their lab. This is all outlined above.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
perspicacity corruption 19.07.2011
CAMRA are really getting on my tits. This is a great article and really highlights how much CAMRA need to change and move with the times.
Good beer is good beer, no matter how its stored, served or produced. If it tastes good and is making a positive impact on the UK beer scene (Like BrewDog is) then it should be included in the festival.
Cheers,
John
John Coleman 19.07.2011
The GBBF is a good event, but it does need variety and 'jazzing' up a bit as it can feel a bit tired.
James D 19.07.2011
I too am disappointed as I was looking forward to trying some of the less often available beers.
Let's see if Marc posts an explanation
Stephanos 19.07.2011
JK 19.07.2011
The fact is that the agreement was for supply of "real ale" from the outset. Many, many people expected this to hit a brick wall as
(a) you have a long history of failure to supply
(b) suspicions that it was all just a publicity stunt
Nothing you've said changes that perception. It's also interesting that you've chosen to show the letterhead (supposedly as proof of the date) while not showing the content of the letter. Given the recent accusations of "clever" manipulation of images it's another poor decision.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
We have far too many exciting things going on to worry about being bitter.
Unless you are confusing us with the beer style bitter. We are not that either :)
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
The comments from the CAMRA guy on the previous blog post seemed quite encouraging as well.
This is just a sad sorry state of affairs, with an organisation supposedly representing consumers, restricting consumer choice.
I'm regretting buying a ticket for GBBF now.
iprise 19.07.2011
I'm about two steps away from calling round breweries and other craft beer people in the UK to see if we can't just start a craft beer movement that celebrates good and diverse British and worldwide beer rather than worrying about how it's packaged and served.
alikocho 19.07.2011
Please read our comparison in paragraph 7 - we believe different styles of dispense suit different styles of beer. We love Trashy Blond in a cask. That is not the point here.
We consider keykeg draft beer as it is dispensed cold and with more CO2 than cask beer.
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
BitterMuch? 19.07.2011
Josh 19.07.2011
mike 19.07.2011
Firstly, the requirement was always that you serve beer that satisfied the definition of "real ale" according to CAMRA's external policy document.
Secondly, your announcement that you would be serving from keg was not entirely accurate, as the only thing keykeg has in common with what is generally understood by the term is that they both contain beer.
CAMRA also "don't care what vessel beer is transported or stored in", provided the beer undergoes secondary fermentation in that vessel. You could supply beer in a dustbin (subject to the logistics of stillaging such a container) and satisfy the technical definition.
The continued comparison of recognised excellent craft/keg beers with hypothetical mundane cask beers is also getting tired. If you're going to compare, then compare like for like; find an excellent cask beer and show that is worse than an excellent keg beer.
Graeme Gander 19.07.2011
James, BrewDog 19.07.2011
I thought it was too good to be true when BrewDog announced their attendance.
Adrain 19.07.2011
BitterMuch? 19.07.2011
Mr T 19.07.2011
Rob 19.07.2011
I see Greg was extolling the virtues of cask Stone beer the other day. Port Street Bar have just had a succession of Sierra Nevada casks in recently too. CAMRA are being muppets, so let them.
Why not just make an absolutely amazing cask beer, stick two fingers up to CAMRA (who ironically seem to be being accused of selling out to BrewDog more than the other way around) and then go back to doing what you want to do?
Alternatively, go with cask beer and use stuffed labradors as dispense vessels. You can still BrewDog it up with out the kegs....
Chris 19.07.2011
Jess 19.07.2011
Stacey 19.07.2011
Matt 19.07.2011